[opuntia]

What would happen if a snake is bitten by another snake [both of the same species] ?Will the bitten one die ?

[MrMistery]

Why not? The venin does not comunicate with the blood vesels… The venin glands are strict exocrine.. So yes, i say it would…

[Dr.Stein]

I think snake has antivenom or a neutralizing agent for their own venom. If not, if they bite itself, maybe they do that for fun or something, it will seem like commit suicide. Also, when they eat their prey after being killed, the venom will include in prey’s body, means that they will consume their own venom, don’t they?

[victor]

Maybe some of them can do that…but, when seeing about the venom which majority grouped into neurotoxins, haemolysis and haemocoagulant toxins, I think it has to meet directly with snake’s blood to make the toxins work…

[Dr.Stein]

When a snake bites another snake of course the biten one will bleed, right? And the venom will release from the gland along its teeth to its prey. There will be a contact between blood and venom, right?

[opuntia]

Yeah…and the bitten one will be affected by the venom and might even die…isn’t it?

[Dr.Stein]

Yes, but if they are the same species, I think the bitten one will survive.

[opuntia]

But WHY? Even they are same species , venom is venom so how come it survives? 😕

[Dr.Stein]

It is possible for body to make antivenom, isn’t it? Or maybe something to neutralize their own venom.

I remember there is a species of snake that always play a dance before mating. I forgot which species, that’s a harmful one. Sometimes in the middle of the dance, anothe male snake comes to interfere the ceremony. So the dance must be stopped, and two males with compete, and the winner will continue the dance. They bite each other but the one is not dead, just go away from the area.

[MrMistery]

You have a point there, Dr.Stein…
I donno, i need to check this…

[James]

Antivenom is simliar to vaccination- it builds up the correct antibodies to the venom. I suppose each snake already has these antibodies, and thus wouldn’t be affected by a bite from a snake with venom the same as it’s own.

[opuntia]

quote Dr.Stein:

They bite each other but the one is not dead, just go away from the area.

Are you sure that they actually bite?…i was thinking …can’t it be what we think we see but not reality?…i mean to us it seems as if they are biting each other but actually not biting?

[MrMistery]

No matter if they bite or not, it would seem stupid not to have antibodies for your own venum to think of it. You would die if you bite your tung 😀

[opuntia]

I was thinking that their venom is released from the poison glands as a response to a stimulus?If it’s like that then i guess no harm would occur even if they bite each other until it rests in peace 😆

[Dr.Stein]

quote opuntia:

quote Dr.Stein:

They bite each other but the one is not dead, just go away from the area.

Are you sure that they actually bite?…i was thinking …can’t it be what we think we see but not reality?…i mean to us it seems as if they are biting each other but actually not biting?

Yes, I saw the video, firs they “stand” on their body vertically, and then bite each other like a snake bite your arm… The one that stops “standing” and back to horizaontal vertical is the loser.

[opuntia]

quote Dr.Stein:

Yes, I saw the video, firs they “stand” on their body vertically, and then bite each other like a snake bite your arm… The one that stops “standing” and back to horizaontal vertical is the loser.

I have seen the same thing too …but on the NGC…i still think that the venom is not being injected into the other snake and i also i think that the release of venom from the poison glands is a response to a stimulus…but of course this could be wrong.

[MrMistery]

Of course it is the result of a stimulus. A mechanical one….

[opuntia]

quote MrMistery:

A mechanical one….

You mean …the prey?

[Dr.Stein]

The venom will be released automatically after their jaws embedded into an object, for instance flesh. I used to force snakes to release their venom by pressing their jaws onto latex, which is spreaded over a beaker glass, it is called as “milking”.

Another venom is spitted instead of being injected, for instance venom of Cobra “the spitting” snake.

[opuntia]

quote Dr.Stein:

Another venom is spitted instead of being injected, for instance venom of Cobra “the spitting” snake.

I like that ”spitting” act 😆

[Mahlon]

Most venomous snakes are susceptible to their own venom.

An example of this would be in rattlesnakes(pit viper), which are preyed upon by kingsnakes (non-venomous colubrid). It has been witnessed many times before where the rattlesnake will bite itself, and die of the poison before the kingsnake has time to asphyxiate(spelling?) the rattler.

Also I have read on a few of the venomous snake forums about several different types of vipers that accidentally bit themselves while feeding and died as a result.

If I can find any references I’ll come back and post them for you guys.

Thanks,
Dan

[James]

Are you saying it commits suicide?

[Dr.Stein]

It is called “harakiri” – better commit suicide than being killed by enemy 😀

[opuntia]

Exactly what i’ll do if i know i’m about to get killed by an enemy…but the thing is i don’t have any enemies 😆

[iri_black]

The snake is not a samurai. it doesn’t have a honor code. 😀
I don’t think they bite themselves.

[b_d_41501]

They don’t bite themselves, but they do attack each other.

[zami’87.]

hi! Did VERY BRIEF search:
In 1993 Japanese and Brazilian researchers independently identified a protein in the blood of a venomous snake that neutralizes its own venom. In laboratory tests in Australia, this protein, named Notechis scutatus inhibitor (NSI) after the tiger snake from the whose blood it was isolated, was effective against the venom of six other snakes.
from site http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/ency … 08678.html
and for NSI
http://www.science.uts.edu.au/centres/ibu/snakes.html
but I’m sure there are better sites.

[Dr.Stein]

Aha! Now you see, just listen to your lovely Dr.Stein! She is reliable 😀 😆

[LrdGeno]

isn’t it also possible for a snake to do a “dry” bite? I’m not a herpetologist so I have no idea, but I thought I heard from somewhere that they could.

[Mahlon]

Ok, finally got a chance to come back on and reply so here goes….

First and foremost, in the situation i described between the king snake and the rattler, the rattler is not biting himself to commit suicide (lol) it is an accidental bite meant for the kingsnake, and once dead either due to its’ own poison or the kingsnake suffocating it, it will be ingested by the kingsnake regardless so it is of no benefit for the snake to committ ” suicide”.

Secondly, while the research on the tiger snake shows that they are able to survive their own bite + those from a few other types of venomous snakes, you can’t apply one species characteristic to all venomous snakes. (example being kingsnakes are immune to rattlesnake venom, kingsnakes are colubrids (non-venomous), therefore all colubrids are immune to rattle snakes, this is false logic and not a good habit to form)

It has been proven in the past that most types of venomous snakes are susceptible to their own venom, and I think that if we looked more into the tiger snake from Australia, we might find that this is a means for the tiger snake to be more productive in its’ ecological niche.

Also as to the guy asking whether a venomous snake can do a “dry” bite, yes this is true. Most sub-adult and adult snakes can regulate the amount of venom they inject, ranging anywhere from a “dry” bite, all the way to a full venom sack divulgence. Alot of people have probably heard the urban legend about baby rattlesnakes being much more potent that the adults. While this is completely false, there is a basis for this urban legend in the fact that newborn venomous snakes do not have good control over their venom sacs. In example, a baby snake does not have the control to dry bite, or to inject only a necessary amount into the bite, it will empty its venom completely all at once (which for the snake isn’t a very good idea considering the fact that the sacs take several days to produce more venom and the snake is now without it’s best survival weapon)

I’ll try to drum up some more info, feel free to post any questions, arguments, or whatever and I’ll see what I can come up with.

THanks,
Dan

[Vada]

That’s a good information..! Thank you, I’ll print it out to study it later.
Lol yea they do have brain so they know how to control their attitude with biting things 😀

[MrMistery]

Just because they have a brain does not mean that they can do anything with it. Well, it applies in this case, but there are a lot of things like sneezing which you can not control. I do not know if you have studies anatomy yet, but you will see there are a lot of things that you can not control about your body, reflexes that close in the lower parts of the central nervous system. Example: if you hear a sudden loud noise in front of you, you will blink. A simple somatic reflex that closes in the pons Varoli. Just to annoy you, here is a site where you can find a lot more info than you will probably ever need. This is quite a refference book, by the way..
http://www.bartleby.com/107/

[Dr.Stein]

If you study anatomy, you will know better for the structure of nerve system. If you want to study the mechanism or the process of reflex and other function of nerve system, I recommend you to study physiology 😉

[MrMistery]

I agree with Dr.Stein. Plus, anatomy is SUPER BORING!!!! Physiology is very nice, one of my favourite subjects. Unfortunately you need to know a little anatomy if you want to study animal physiology as it should be studied…

[Dr.Stein]

Yep. We cannot separate “structure” from “function” or “function” from “structure”, which one is in the first and second place, it doesn’t matter, it is just cannot be separated. It means that when we want to study the function, we must know the structure first. That is why in our curriculum here, anatomy is given earlier rather than physiology, because students must know “what is what” (passkey for anatomy) before they study “why and how” (passkey for physiology).

And yes, many students (now I know not only in my country but also here, there and everywhere) complain about the boring anatomy.. I think it is because we have to remember (I don’t say we must memorize because it isn’t the idea) all things. Simply because it is the primitive type of learning (C1) and this is the first way for beginners to study, well I’m sorry I must say this is like a force (sad but true). When they already “get into themselves”, then they don’t need to be forced that way and can study with the further type of learning (C2, C3, …, C6).

I am a teacher and I should know this to help my students on their study. I don’t just teach to give the knowlegde, I also help them when they have a problem, whether it is about study or private one. I prefer to be their facilitator rather than a teacher; facilitator sounds more friendly, yeah it is always nice to be friends, while teacher sounds like a preacher hehe… 😆

[MrMistery]

I find anatomy boring because there is nothing happening in anatomy….

[victor]

Ck..ck..ck..actually anatomy is interesting…I like anatomy.. 😆
If you study anatomy, you’ll learn the ‘cool’ name of organisms’ body parts… 😆

[MrMistery]

I actually find it annoying that there are things that have 4-5 different names meaning exactly the same thing

[opuntia]

I like anatomy and i find it amusing to learn alll those name which in general mean the samething 8)

[iri_black]

I agree with Andrew: physiology is far more interesting 🙂

[opuntia]

Yeah,that too is interesting 🙂

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