Viewing 28 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #6773
      burninbriar
      Participant

      Weather you believe in Darwin or Creation, I think we all can agree that evolution does take place on a species wide basis to adapt the species to the ever changing environment and produce a stronger, healthier species. So consider this.
      With modern medicine, we have the ability to turn the least attractive into the most attractive through plastic surgery. We can make the most ill live normal lives with no real way of telling that the person is ill.(bad hearts, livers, kidneys, mental disorders, bad teeth, etcetera) With all these undesirable traits being passed from generation to generation virtually unnoticed as far as people’s desire for one another and the the desire and ability to reproduce is concerned, one could wonder if we are saving lives in the short run or destroying the race in the long run ? Are we creating a race that will be totally dependent on medicine and machines to keep us alive ? Just think about the radical changes to our environment in just the last 100 years and look at where we are headed. Look at how many children are on behavioral medication, is this an inherited mental disorder perpetuating its self or a parenting alternative ? I could go on and on but I think you all get the point.

      I mean no offense to anyone by this and I apologize if it does offend anyone, its just something I’ve often thought about.

    • #66765
      Oscerot
      Participant

      That can’t offend anyone.

      Anyways, a rise in child "disorders" is heavily due to the media (such as ADD) and possibly toxins that people obtain from foods and or uncertified drugs. Human beings today are technically superior from a physical and mental point of view than any other generation before us. So that being said, we can only keep improving.

      Also, the field of genetic engineering is really going to make way for our advancements in the future I believe.

    • #67203
      pankaaj
      Participant
      quote burninbriar:

      Weather you believe in Darwin or Creation, I think we all can agree that evolution does take place on a species wide basis to adapt the species to the ever changing environment and produce a stronger, healthier species. So consider this.
      With modern medicine, we have the ability to turn the least attractive into the most attractive through plastic surgery. We can make the most ill live normal lives with no real way of telling that the person is ill.(bad hearts, livers, kidneys, mental disorders, bad teeth, etcetera) With all these undesirable traits being passed from generation to generation virtually unnoticed as far as people’s desire for one another and the the desire and ability to reproduce is concerned, one could wonder if we are saving lives in the short run or destroying the race in the long run ? Are we creating a race that will be totally dependent on medicine and machines to keep us alive ? Just think about the radical changes to our environment in just the last 100 years and look at where we are headed. Look at how many children are on behavioral medication, is this an inherited mental disorder perpetuating its self or a parenting alternative ? I could go on and on but I think you all get the point.

      I mean no offense to anyone by this and I apologize if it does offend anyone, its just something I’ve often thought about.

      yaa..good pt to think!
      Bt thn it is also possible tht the pop dependin on medicines might get destroyed and independent may survive!
      And after all,means , I think tht we r not obeying the natural laws hence thinking on such a topic will require anthr new theory like tht of Darwin’s!

    • #67238
      alextemplet
      Participant

      I’ve thought about that before; today’s super-technology really is making our species weak. It’s not just in health and medicine, though, it’s also in intelligence. I seriously believe that people today are dumber than they were a century or two ago, a large part of that being because they simply don’t have to think as much as they used to.

    • #67284
      burninbriar
      Participant

      I really don’t think we are doomed, but since the things we do to correct dysfunctions that a person was born with are not going to be passed on to the next generation, it seems to defy logic that we can circumvent the process of natural selection and survival of the fittest and still prosper as a species.
      As for our general intelligence, I guess if you don’t use it, you lose it. I think degeneration of unused organs and such is something supported by both evolution and creation theory’s, I think, correct me if I’m wrong.

    • #67288
      mith
      Participant

      With great power comes great responsibility….

    • #68152
      AstusAleator
      Participant
      quote Oscerot:

      That can’t offend anyone.

      Anyways, a rise in child “disorders” is heavily due to the media (such as ADD) and possibly toxins that people obtain from foods and or uncertified drugs. Human beings today are technically superior from a physical and mental point of view than any other generation before us. So that being said, we can only keep improving.

      Also, the field of genetic engineering is really going to make way for our advancements in the future I believe.

      I disagree that we are superior to previous generations, in a physiological sense. Humans from the Pleistocene would be just as physicall fit, if not moreso, than our modern professional athletes. They had to be, otherwise they were dead or dying.

      Your point about the field of genetics is interesting. Do you think we’re anywhere even close to the point where we can and will start tampering with the human genetic code? I think a little thing called ethics might get in the way of that…

      Child disorders are caused by many things, and genetic predisposition should not be discounted.

    • #68157
      kjle
      Participant
      quote Oscerot:

      That can’t offend anyone.

      Anyways, a rise in child “disorders” is heavily due to the media (such as ADD) and possibly toxins that people obtain from foods and or uncertified drugs. Human beings today are technically superior from a physical and mental point of view than any other generation before us. So that being said, we can only keep improving.

      Also, the field of genetic engineering is really going to make way for our advancements in the future I believe.

      I also disagree. I think our dependence on medicine and machines has indeed weakened us, as Alex said. And our minds are being dumbed down by the media. Take for a simple example the use of calculators. In my growing up years I was never allowed to use a calculator until like grade 10. Now, all kids are using them starting very early. And my ability to calculate numbers in my head far surpasses my peers who used calculators growing up. This may be a very limited case, but I hope you can see the point I’m trying to make. Machines can only weaken us, and I believe they will continue to do so.

      I think if anyone believes that this world is getting better, and healthier, they are sorely mistaken. It’s just a simple law of entropy.

    • #68158
      Linn
      Participant

      I agree

      Calculaters were never allowed when I was in school

      And I dont believe in ADD
      I think these poor kids are not getting enough excercise.
      And society keeps increasing the school hours nd decreasing gym and recess.
      What the heck do they expect a kid is going to do with all that pent up energy? Kids especially boys cant sit still for hours and hours and hours 👿
      It’s also wrong to give these kids drugs. IMO

      This is a subject that gets me a bit mad 😈 😈

    • #68160
      mith
      Participant

      Then kids get screwed over on non-calc tests….

    • #68165
      alextemplet
      Participant

      I agree with Linn, Kyle, and Astus. ADD doesn’t exist and all our technology has severely weakened us both physically and mentally. I was thinking about this earlier today, how it seems to be sort of a cycle. Our intelligence allowed us to develop the technology that has allowed our species to take over the planet, yet that same technology has also weakened us and will, I believe, result in the ultimate downfall of humanity. I know that sounds a bit pessimistic and dramatic, but think about it. Throughout history, people have gotten dumber and dumber at a rate proportionate to technological development. If people continue getting dumber, we’ll no longer have the brains to produce and use the technology! And at that point our society will self-destruct. That’s my thoughts on the matter, at least.

    • #68168
      mith
      Participant

      Sometimes, it’s not that maybe it’s because we have such large populations that extremes are more likely to be seen. Maybe percentage-wise there really aren’t that many more dumb people, just that our standards have changed and we see numerically more of them.

      This idea was brought up in a Dilbert book but I think it does make a lot of sense. Every once in a while there’s going to be a genius born who invents something. At first it was something simplistic like a spear, everyone could grasp that….however with the advent of printing, ideas and inventions have grown progressively more complex while our brains haven’t really had time to evolve. While a select few are pioneering, the rest of us are just treading water as fast as we can.

    • #68189
      alextemplet
      Participant

      I see your point, mith, and certainly the media only shows the stupider news stories, so that might contribute to a perception of wide-spread stupidity. And while I do concede that there’s still plenty of geniuses out there, I still think that overall humans are stupider than we were a few generations ago. The earlier example with calculators and math skills is an illustrative, if small-scale, example. As a whole people simply don’t need to use their minds as much as they used to. Cars are another example. It used to be that an automatic transmission was a luxury only for the super-rich; now they’re common to the point that 80% of drivers can’t drive a manual at all. And politics, to me, is the final clincher to show how dumb people are getting. I’m sure you don’t need me to elaborate on that since I will most likely digress into numerous angry rants, but I think you get my point.

    • #68235
      Linn
      Participant

      Maybe we are heading towards "The singularity"

    • #68285
      Dustfinger
      Participant

      The singularity ? AARgh….. no !! No space and ztime there, isn’t it ?

    • #68458
      narrowstaircase
      Participant

      why do people feel that changing from driving a manual car to an automatic or going from working out mathematical equations on paper to using a calculator is a regression in our overall evolutionary developement? people totally skip the mark in thinking about human endevours.

      utterly dismissing ADD for whatever reasons is totally irresponsible. mental disorders have alot to do with subconcious escapism because our reality is so destructive to our spirit, or moral self. this question of our physiological ‘fitness’ totally pervades the real questions we should be asking ourselves.

      if we dont tend to our ‘other’ side, our instinctive moral side, we probably will be the most physiologically perfect organism in the universe yet die on mass because of an unrealised purpose or meaning to our lives. talking about our ‘fitness’ without acknowledging a psychological developement and a moralistic endevour in human developement is espcapist in itself.

    • #68506
      burninbriar
      Participant

      While I agree, our moral standards are going down the tubes, I don’t think they are an inherited trait. My original question was intended towards permanent changes, or at least changes that would take generations to reverse.

    • #68509
      AstusAleator
      Participant

      Narrowstaircase makes a good point. In a lot of cases we make false-dichotomies, since they are much simpler to deal with than the reality of situations (if such a thing exists). To say that a thing like ADD exists or doesn’t, denies the true nature of the fact (again, if such a thing exists). But that is philosophical musing, and somewhat out of place in a discussion *theoretically* based in science. One of my psych professors is quoted as saying, "there’s little psychology left, it’s all biology and philosophy now."

      Anyway, I tend to agree that some things are not necessarily becoming more prevalent, but just more visible due to media and large population.

    • #69205
      charles brough
      Participant

      The accumulatioln of health problems from the way we live does no harm to the human race because it has happened often and never occurs all over the world. It is a trait that undermines one society while another is recovering and growing stronger. Part of the reason the Roman-Greek world went into decline was health-related. Lead pipes were used in cities and people were poisened by them. There is nothing new under the sun!

      Part of the heavy health cost system we have in the US is perhaps due to this accumulating of genetic defects. People with them are surgically or medically treated so they can reproduce.

      Anyway, the proof is that we humans are genetically about the same as we were almost 200,000 years ago. That is the latest estimate of the so-far life span of Homo Sapiens.

      Our cultural progress is what makes us differerent. That occurs through social evolution. charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

    • #69214
      mith
      Participant
      quote charles brough:

      Part of the heavy health cost system we have in the US is perhaps due to this accumulating of genetic defects. People with them are surgically or medically treated so they can reproduce.

      I’d blame the aging boomer population and the cost of pharmeceuticals more than genetic problems.

    • #69215
      charles brough
      Participant

      so would I, but it is still part of the cost

      charles

    • #69217
      AstusAleator
      Participant

      WE MUST PURIFY THE HUMAN RACE! SIEG HIEL!

      Was that innappropriate? I get the feeling that it was… hmmm…
      yeah.. sorry about that.

      But in my defense it does bring up an interesting point about the moral/ethical implications this kind of inquiry can have, especially if it is world-leaders that are conducting it.

    • #69230
      burninbriar
      Participant
      quote charles brough:

      The accumulatioln of health problems from the way we live does no harm to the human race because it has happened often and never occurs all over the world. It is a trait that undermines one society while another is recovering and growing stronger. Part of the reason the Roman-Greek world went into decline was health-related. Lead pipes were used in cities and people were poisened by them. There is nothing new under the sun!

      Part of the heavy health cost system we have in the US is perhaps due to this accumulating of genetic defects. People with them are surgically or medically treated so they can reproduce.

      Anyway, the proof is that we humans are genetically about the same as we were almost 200,000 years ago. That is the latest estimate of the so-far life span of Homo Sapiens.

      Our cultural progress is what makes us differerent. That occurs through social evolution. charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

      You make a good point about the rise and fall of past civilizations and that we are still about genetically the same, but my point is that never before in history were we able to keep genetic duds (excuse the language) alive and reproducing like we do today. There really is no precedence for what will happen.
      Again, I’d like to emphasize that I am referring to physical defects as much or more than the mental defects.

    • #69233
      Linn
      Participant
      code :You make a good point about the rise and fall of past civilizations and that we are still about genetically the same, but my point is that never before in history were we able to keep genetic duds (excuse the language) alive and reproducing like we do today. There really is no precedence for what will happen.

      What kind of genetic "dud" are you talking about?
      Steven Hawking type?

      Society today is moving more toward valuing the mind than the body.
      Even jobs worth doing now a days you need college. Years ago you just needed to finish high school or even drop out and you could be susccesful.
      School days are being increased, kids are pushed to learning to read earlier. Kids that have trouble sitting still for two hours are being labeled as having ADHD where years ago they were just normal.

      I have read about studies where woman are choosing geekier, brainy type guys over the macho types which were preferred in the past.

      Those are changes I have witnessed.

      So if the genetic "dud" doesnt affect the brain then it will not matter.

      Only probelm will be if a world wide disaster happens and technology is wiped out and we need to go back to the old survival skills.
      Like farming, nd hunting etc…

      But, then again, by the time that happens they may have unraveled the
      cause of these genetic disorders which most of the time, the direct result of a mutation in just one gene.

      With aAdvances in technology,we are getting closer every day. 😉

    • #69240
      burninbriar
      Participant
      quote Linn:

      What kind of genetic “dud” are you talking about?
      Steven Hawking type?

      Society today is moving more toward valuing the mind than the body.
      Even jobs worth doing now a days you need college. Years ago you just needed to finish high school or even drop out and you could be susccesful.
      School days are being increased, kids are pushed to learning to read earlier. Kids that have trouble sitting still for two hours are being labeled as having ADHD where years ago they were just normal.

      I have read about studies where woman are choosing geekier, brainy type guys over the macho types which were preferred in the past.

      Those are changes I have witnessed.

      So if the genetic “dud” doesnt affect the brain then it will not matter.

      Only probelm will be if a world wide disaster happens and technology is wiped out and we need to go back to the old survival skills.
      Like farming, nd hunting etc…

      But, then again, by the time that happens they may have unraveled the
      cause of these genetic disorders which most of the time, the direct result of a mutation in just one gene.

      With aAdvances in technology,we are getting closer every day. 😉

      First I’d like to say that I don’t mean to offend anyone with the term "genetic dud". I take you’re point of Steven Hawking as meaning physical disorder rather than mental, I did not have one in mind over the other but yes, his illness would be in line with the topic although I didn’t particularly have something that severe in mind when I started it.
      I think you make an interesting point but I also think you are somewhat misguided thinking that technology will eliminate blue collar work. No offense intended but farmers and trades workers will always be needed. Unless of course we develop machines to do all that. I guess the other fear in this scenario would be how much permanent damage is done before technology catches up to stop the illnesses.

    • #69243
      Dr.Stein
      Participant

      We are heading to tomorrow 🙂

    • #69250
      narrowstaircase
      Participant
      quote charles brough:

      …Anyway, the proof is that we humans are genetically about the same as we were almost 200,000 years ago. That is the latest estimate of the so-far life span of Homo Sapiens.

      Our cultural progress is what makes us differerent. That occurs through social evolution…

      i think this is an important point in this discussion. the health problems in our society nowadays may be due to our practices which are culturally imbedded. but to what extent are you talking about genetic duds? what constitutes a genetic dud in its lowest form in your opinion? if this is the case we may be at the end of our peak for western civilisation. (?)

      also a point worth concidering is psychosomatic health issues. why dont we live in an ideal society? what are the implications of this? how do our feelings affect our health? also just because our society is biased towards intellectualism nowadays doesnt mean we are doing anymore thinking. infact its been stated by many psychologists that we are actually becoming less adept at critical thinking (RD Laing is one).

      overall i think the problems we’re facing have to do with evolution of our mind.

    • #69285
      burninbriar
      Participant
      quote narrowstaircase:

      but to what extent are you talking about genetic duds? what constitutes a genetic dud in its lowest form in your opinion?

      For the purpose of this discussion, any genetic malfunction that would require some sort of assistance to stay alive weather it be mechanical or medicinal.
      I guess the to use a cane due to a genetic malfunction would be life threatening to early man but that is not really what I had in mind. I think my first post and the one at the top of this page pretty much says what I mean. There is so many, its hard to say what the lowest form would be, I suppose thats up to the judgment of the poster and the point he or she wants to make. I have a new point to post but I am trying to figure out how to word it properly, maybe someone will beet me to it.

    • #69890
      45561
      Participant

      I suppose an important question is whether or not a sample group of newborns from today could survive equally well if they were taken back, say, 100 years. (I’d roll out the nature versus nurture argument, but we’d be here forever.)

      Playing Devil’s advocate for a moment, we may well be allowing genetic diversity to flourish or preserving useful traits that would otherwise be lost, which could prove useful in the case of some cataclysmic event.

Viewing 28 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.